Well, sure, all of us have some sadness in our lives- but even with the shit that I went through as a kid, I don’t think that I can really compare the sadness in my life to the sadness that most comic heroes go through- I mean, come on, I’ve never watched anyone, let alone my primary care giver, get murdered right in front of my face. I never learned that I was the last of my kind in the universe. I never lost all the people I loved because I was turned into an inhuman monstrosity. Do we envy the powers? Aboslutely. I don’t think that most of us envy the lives, necessarily.

Like I said: Of course, as kids, we think the powers are great- who wouldn’t *love* to have Spider-Man’s powers? Does any child who reads comics not eventually realize “Wow. Batman’s life sucks”?

And as for the Batman bit? Like the said in the current thread on feministe, it can take years to forgive your parents for being human. So would I have traded my parents’ life for being the girl-equivalent of Batman at that age? Three times before breakfast! In fact, like many kids, I hated my parents at the time, so parents dead + large inheritance + being able to do whatever I want? Yeah, I’d definitely have counted that as “lucky” in my fantasies. Very, very lucky. In fact, I’m not even sure Batman’s life sucks. He has a ton of problems, admittedly — but then, who doesn’t, and at least he gets meaning, gets to have impact, where most of us don’t. It’s not perfect, but it’s more than most of us get. Oh, and intensity to boot.

As kids we feel that way- but would you still trade your parents lives for that? I suspect that, for most of us, the answer is no. Thats the problem I have with the suggestion that the princess thing is somehow the same as the super hero thing. Our society does try to teach girls that one of the best things they can be is a princess, and the media still pushes that image onto young women and adults. There’s the notion that you haven’t “Made it” until you have a princess wedding. I don’t think that most adult men grow up still thinking that they have to meet the super hero ideal. As children we wish we could be Batman, but I don’t think that it’s ever really held up as something we should actually aspire to.

In fact, I think you may be a little off at that when you state, heroes are about what they do, princesses about what they are (beautiful). This is a very, very dangerous way of phrasing it: “Being interesting (or muscular, or …) takes constant work, wouldn’t you like to be beautiful instead?” Hell yes! I get to skip all the hard work? Sign me up! The thing is, in the real word, to no small extent, beauty is something you do.

I’m certainly not attempting to minimize the work that women put into meeting the beauty standards that our society places on them. That’s got to be a ton of work, no doubt- but, with regards to the fictions we give our children, I think the point still stands. We don’t teach children about all of the work that goes into creating that beautiful image- we don’t teach them that Sleeping Beauty spends x hours a day getting ready, or how much money is spent on products, etc. I stand by my criticism: You’re a princess because of who you are, not what you do. As far as Disney is concerned, most princesses simply are beautiful. Heroes are heroes because of the actions they take. You’re a hero because you fight injustice and crime, and because you work to save people. I think that’s a serious narrative difference.

The thing however is that the actual process is often ridiculed and hidden, because, wink wink nudge nudge, we’re all naturally beautiful, of course. Like Jill said, “expected to do everything their male counterparts do, and excel at beauty at the same time.” If beauty were an innate quality that you either have or don’t have, this possibly wouldn’t be as much of a problem.

Honestly, I think that’s very accurate, and I think that’s another reason to criticize the “Princess and hero are both harmful” suggestion. I don’t see that as contradicting anything I’m suggesting, but, in fact, adding to the critique: teaching little girls that the best they can aspire to is a princess is harmful, in part, because it helps ingrain them with unhealthy and unrealistic ideas about beauty. I think this goes back to what I said above: these things suggest that “real” beauty is natural. You have it or you don’t, as you say. The thing is, if you don’t have it- and who does?- then you have to work to fake it as much as you can.

Thanks for commenting, by the by!

And as for the Batman bit? Like the said in the current thread on feministe, it can take years to forgive your parents for being human. So would I have traded my parents’ life for being the girl-equivalent of Batman at that age? Three times before breakfast! In fact, like many kids, I hated my parents at the time, so parents dead + large inheritance + being able to do whatever I want? Yeah, I’d definitely have counted that as “lucky” in my fantasies. Very, very lucky. In fact, I’m not even sure Batman’s life sucks. He has a ton of problems, admittedly — but then, who doesn’t, and at least he gets meaning, gets to have impact, where most of us don’t. It’s not perfect, but it’s more than most of us get. Oh, and intensity to boot.

Now, nitpicking on the details aside, I agree that the “princess” bit is awkward. In fact, it’s insidious. In fact, I think you may be a little off at that when you state, heroes are about what they do, princesses about what they are (beautiful). This is a very, very dangerous way of phrasing it: “Being interesting (or muscular, or …) takes constant work, wouldn’t you like to be beautiful instead?” Hell yes! I get to skip all the hard work? Sign me up! The thing is, in the real word, to no small extent, beauty is something you do. Whether it’s taking an hour to brush your hair, or do your legs, or exercise, or diet, it’s an ongoing process that takes time and often money. The thing however is that the actual process is often ridiculed and hidden, because, wink wink nudge nudge, we’re all naturally beautiful, of course. Like Jill said, “expected to do everything their male counterparts do, and excel at beauty at the same time.” If beauty were an innate quality that you either have or don’t have, this possibly wouldn’t be as much of a problem. The way things are it means, you’re supposed to spend as much effort as men (on being competent and getting things done), and then spend more time (and money) on being beautiful: fashion, hair, makeup, whatnot — and of course it’s a constant drain, because fashion changes, and makeup lines within the same company change, and unless you get tailor-made / custom-made, you can’t just name the attributes that work for you, you have to find something within what’s offered that year. And if you like it, G-d knows they’ll cancel that product. Oh yes they will, trust me on that one. And no, guys, it’s not like you work out your best colours and then memorize the pantone — colour codes are different for each company, and they change over the years. And you thought what you knew as vendor lock-in was bad. Oh, and if your performance of “beauty” includes doing things like having your labia changed to look like some porn star’s, or whatever it was that I read the other day, then of course the drain on money is even stronger. So you take the drain from fashion and all that, factor in any difference in pay you may get from what your male colleagues get, and then you wait. And the next time somebody tells you to vote with your money, you kick in a few heads. (With or without heels, your choice.)

*takes a deep breath* Ahem.

It said everything that’s been running thru my mind lately and more

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_male_superheroes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_superheroines

I never knew there were so many of ‘em!

Red: You won’t see any argument from me. I’d love to see more intelligently written female characters become popular. I guess things are moving in that direction- more and more female characters are written as characters, instead of as props/fan service/plot devices, which is nice. But, there’s still resistance. Some readers won’t read a book about a female character, and I’ve seen parents refuse to buy a book for their child if the main character isn’t the same gender (mostly this works if it’s a boy child and a female character).

I wrote an essay earlier this summer that may be relevant here. (“My Super Stereotype Filled Movie!”)

While I wanted to be Cinderella and Ariel when I was very young (5 and 7, respectively), I wanted a whole lot more to be Jubilee and Rogue when I was older. And Delerium, Death, and Harley Quinn as I got even older.

And Power Girl, but that was last year, so I don’t think it counts.

If The Princess Collection had existed in the 80s, I would have been all over it.

But I turned out to be as un-Princessy as a gal can be…if you couldn’t tell my super herione name dropping.

You’ve characterized my comments correctly, but I should point out the superhero/princess analogy wasn’t originally mine, I was just agreeing with an earlier commenter.

The discussion at Feministe, and the context for my thought, is that little girls (say, 6 years old) look at the princesses as role models, and that the role models, as presented, are more harmful than helpful. I think you make a bunch of good points here, but I think your missing that context.

Just as the Patriarchs at Disney homogonized Belle & Mulan & all the others, so to has Time Warner distilled Supes & Batman & Spidey down to good looking men in tights who Always Do the Right Thing. Agreed, that’s not the comic book heroes you & I love, but that IS the role model the Patriarchy is presenting to those 6 year old boys and, again it’s those homogenized role model that do the damage, not the original source material.

Interestingly, I think the same is true for the Princesses. Mulan is a hero, a true warrior. But by the time she made it to the t-shirts, toys & coloring books, she’s nothing more than pretty face in a Japanese dress .

heroes are heroes by what they do. Princesses are not.

Really? All the “mainstream” Superheros got that way by an accident of birth (Superman, X-men) or just plain accident (Spidey). Even Batman, the one with out any powers still relied on the being born into the right family to fund his evolution into a Superhero. How is that any different than being the one with the Fairy Godmother, or the one born daughter to the king? The archetype of either the Superhero or the princess is presented as someone luckier than the reader/viewer, who then did something “good” with that luck.